A few years ago, A Visit to William Edward Southill introduced the famous British missionary and sinologist in the Republic of China to readers, and this book was also rated as a good book of the year by various media. Later, the author Shen Jia published The Ship to China, which attracted readers' attention again. Not long ago, Shen Jia edited four books by Xie Fuyun, the daughter of William Edward Sothir, which were published by Oriental Publishing House, such as Noble Family, Hidden Dragon Pool, Lady China and New China. Phoenix, take advantage of Shen Jia's return to China. Com interviewed Shen Jia on the integration of missionaries and Chinese and Western cultures.
Four Works by Xie Fuyun, Daughter of William Edward Sohill
Shen Jia: Missionaries and the Integration of Chinese and Western Cultures
The church changed the power structure of the lower class.
Phoenix. Com: I saw your experience and said that your family has been Christian since your grandmother's generation, and William Edward Soothill himself was a missionary. What are your opportunities and opportunities to study in William Edward Sawhill, including your interest in him? What role does Christianity play?
Shen Jia: For religious reasons, I can pay attention to William Edward Sawhill. If I wasn't born into a Christian family, I wouldn't care about William Edward Sawhill. Wenzhou is a coastal city, and the ports in the late Qing Dynasty were greatly influenced by Christianity. I believe there are many families who believe in Christianity for generations in coastal open cities, and my family is no exception. In my hometown of Wenzhou, such families can be found everywhere. Today's Fuzhou and Xiamen include Shanghai and Nanjing, which signed unequal treaties that year. This is very common.
Because of the inheritance of family beliefs, I am usually influenced by Christian culture a little more. When I was a child, I watched my elders pray. Going to church on Sunday is a part of my life. Most of my friends who know my grandmother are Christians. I will go to church with my family since I was a child, and then I will hear some stories or legends about missionaries and believers. There are some traces and memories in childhood.
My research on William Edward Sosil and Xie Fuyun must start from here. After paying attention to William Edward Sawhill, I moved on not only for religious reasons, but also from looking for William Edward Sawhill to a ship bound for China, and finishing Xie Fuyun's works today. Sometimes, I want to explore the track of China's historical development to this day, or look for the mode of interaction between our country or this nation and this group of China people and the world. This topic may be more interesting.
Phoenix. Com: I saw a ship sailing for China, and I saw that you were looking for the cemetery and former residence of William Edward Sohill, and looking for information overseas. When you do this kind of historical research, you must have your own concerns and contemporary consciousness in it.
Shen Jia: There is indeed a contemporary consciousness. The stronger the sense of the times, that is, when what you are looking for is more closely related to the present, the more you are actually moved.
When I first studied William Edward Sawhill, I didn't have such a strong contemporary consciousness. At that time, there was only one simple wish. Just because no one knows this person, I want to tell you what kind of person this is. When I decided to do it in 2007, there was only one motivation. But in the process of searching for William Edward Sawhill, I found that my original intention had changed greatly. What is the purpose of finding out? I'm not just writing a life story for this man. I actually wanted to tell you why we forgot. There is also the survival mode that we once had to get along with the world. What does it inspire us today? Including this time, I spent a lot of energy to introduce Xie Fuyun's four books. In fact, it is not only to tell you what wonderful stories Xie Fuyun wrote, but also to say that we had a good interaction with the world, and China and European and American civilizations were seamlessly connected without hostility. We used to be hostile, but we gradually melted. To tell the truth, the degree of modernization or civilization of people in that era, looking at the world, some places are a little more civilized than today.
Phoenix. Com: On a ship bound for China, there was a plot that Yuxian killed a missionary in Shanxi in 1900, which was very tragic, killing not only the missionary, but also women and children. As you just said, some missionaries, including Timothy Richard and even earlier missionaries, overcame more difficulties when they came to China than William Edward Sawhill and others. William Edward Sawhill's generation of missionaries can be regarded as a better running-in stage. How to treat the collision and blending of Chinese and western cultures brought by missionaries in the late Qing Dynasty to the Republic of China?
Shen Jia: In the late Qing Dynasty, western powers or Christian civilized countries, represented by Britain, first wanted to seek cooperation with our traditional Chinese mainland. In fact, the core of the Opium War was trade, and Britain did not want to occupy the territory of China. By the end of the Second Opium War, the Qing court decided that it could not beat Britain, so it sat down to negotiate and signed a series of unequal treaties, which really opened the ports and began to trade and preach.
At first, they could only preach in the five cities agreed in treaty of nanking. By the second Opium War, it had become a coastal port, and it was even free to preach in the mainland, and churches could be built, and missionaries could live and live in China. It is also said that Christianity entered the Qing Dynasty by imperialist gunboats, but these missionaries who came to China did not belong to their country's government. Because the church is an NGO (non-governmental organization) in the west, not a government-funded organization. Those missionaries who come to China don't get the salary of the country and don't work for his country. They think they work for God. Therefore, a large number of missionaries spontaneously signed up for his church to preach in China, which was the basic organizational model of missionary work in the late Qing Dynasty.
What they bring is the spirit of Western Christianity, which is completely different from China's Confucian ideology since 2000. The most typical scholar-bureaucrat in China thinks that we have the best civilization system in the world, and we don't need any whimsy from you at all. First of all, they did bring unequal treaties. Second, they brought completely unfamiliar ideas, so naturally there are many conflicts. At the same time, we should also see that in China's urban and rural areas, especially below the county level, Confucianism and gentry occupy the power center. After Christianity came in, two power centers suddenly appeared, especially after the government allowed missionaries to set up churches in the mainland, the power center centered on churches competed with the power center centered on Confucius Temple, and the lower class wanted to leave the center centered on Confucius Temple, so they could do nothing as long as they took refuge in the church.
This kind of conflict existed in all the places with churches at that time. In fact, this is the most fundamental reason for the emergence of religious plans. On the surface, it is an ideological struggle, and behind it is a struggle for power. Why are there so many rumors in China's religious plans? It is said that missionaries kill children and use their hearts and eyes as medicine ... Many religious plans include these remoteness. Where did these rumors come from? In fact, it was concocted and spread by local gentry, because the church shook their power base, and the further down, the greater the shake to the Confucian power center. It turns out that in a patriarchal society, I can have the final say. Today, I suddenly came to a church, and all the lower classes went. This is a very core reason for the frequent appearance of religious plans in the late Qing Dynasty.
Phoenix. Com: In other words, the church changed the power structure of the lower class and led to disputes.
Shen Jia: Yes. Even Li Hongzhang and Cixi were afraid of foreigners, because the Qing court suffered repeated wars and defeats. Therefore, in local areas, if someone clashed with foreigners, foreigners would surely win. Why? It is his superiors who decide the local officials. The highest level is fear of foreigners. No loss? Then the further you go, the more you lose, and the stronger the national sentiment of the people at the bottom. Foreigners, including some missionaries, are even more arrogant. Some parishioners don't behave themselves. They were marginalized in the Confucian system, so they took refuge in the church, a new power center. In addition, some missionaries from the west are simple and sometimes listen to these unruly remarks. Missionaries sometimes petition high-level officials for an unruly person. When the high-level supervisor comes down, the local officials are exempted. Some traditional literati in China still have a lot of backbone, and they are not satisfied with it. As a result, national emotions and contradictions are becoming more and more intense. As a result, this entanglement has become a lesson plan.
It seems unreasonable that Yuxian slaughtered missionaries, women and children in Shanxi today, but Yuxian is a hero in his nationalist self-thinking mode and among his fans. Yuxian is a man who has read books. With such a high official position, he will not be a simple thug in essence. However, he killed his mother in front of the children and his wife in front of her husband ... Yuxian's image in the west is Nero, and Cixi later killed him as her scapegoat. The process of Yuxian's final death left many records. On the day of going to the execution ground, Lanzhou was empty and he was impassioned. How many elegies did the people send him? He thinks he was killed. If we put these two pictures together, we will see what our nation is divided into, but Yuxian's thinking mode is very marketable.
Shenjia
Humanism is universally applicable.
Phoenix Network: It is at this point that I saw the value and significance of William Edward Sawhill. He founded schools and hospitals in China to study China culture. Although there are many obstacles ahead, he can still see the integration of civilizations after the test of time and his own behavior. what do you think?
Shen Jia: The purpose of our education and reading today is actually to make people live in peace. Those people in terrorist organizations may feel powerful when they blow up the London underground. At a certain level, he doesn't know how much the world will pay for his so-called ambition. From this point of view, Yuxian doesn't understand either. When the Qing court was afraid of the allied forces moving into Shanxi, someone thought of Timothy Richard, a missionary from England, and perhaps only this foreigner could save the crisis. On May 29th, timothy richard 190 1 handed over a copy of the Articles of Association for Dealing with Shanxi Religious Plans with Li Fuxiang to Li Hongzhang. Put forward the following compensation suggestions: a total fine of 502,000 yuan, 52,000 yuan per year, limited to ten years. However, this fine does not belong to westerners or parishioners. The purpose is to enlighten Shanxi people, set up schools, educate useful learning, and make officials, gentry and concubines learn without confusion. Choose a scholar from the west to manage his affairs. Timothy Richard said to himself, "Establish a Western-style university in Taiyuan to overcome people's ignorance and superstition-this ignorance and superstition is the main reason for killing foreigners." The win-win plan put forward by Timothy Richard was regarded by William Edward Sawhill as a generous and great proposal, and only people with experience and foresight like Li could put forward it, which led to the later Shanxi University Hall. 1907 In July, William Edward Sawhill and his wife arrived in Taiyuan and became the second general teacher of Tang Xizhai of Shanxi University.
Phoenix. Com: timothy richard didn't make excessive demands in this proposal, and said that officials should not be held accountable again because the impact was too great. This kind of mind is really remarkable.
Shen Jia: This is actually a cosmopolitan and humanitarian thought and vision. It transcends races and even religious beliefs. This is the great man. For example, Christian missionaries take the world as their heart. "Looking for William Edward Sawhill" didn't expand much. In fact, everyone has a story about foreigners who were killed in the Gengzi religious plan. Most of them chose not to pay compensation at that time. Another missionary's family died here, and his brother was in the United States, a local elite in the United States. He proposed to set up a hospital in Taiyuan in the name of his brother to continue to help the local people. Several families of American missionaries who died joined forces to set up a famous school in Taigu, Kong Xiangxi's hometown, and entrusted Kong Xiangxi as the head of the Chinese side. Mingxian School is the predecessor of Shanxi Agricultural University today, and it is a sister school with Oberlin University in the United States. The families of the victims of the Shanxi religious case repay China with cosmopolitanism.
Phoenix. Com: These deeds have greatly touched some people in China. Has this solved the cultural conflict between China and the West?
Shen Jia: 1900 After the Gengzi teaching plan, the confrontation turned to detente. One of the important reasons is that Cixi already knew that confrontation with the West would be over, so she finally decided to give up confrontation. Therefore, about 20 years after 1900, it ushered in the golden time for western culture to enter China. At that time, people began to be proud of going to church schools and being Christians at the same time. At that time, many people in the upper class believed in Christ, and Christians became high-ranking people in society and felt superior. At the same time, at that stage, China built the most universities and the most missionary schools.
Phoenix. Com: I remember Mr. Zhou Youguang studied at St. John's University when he was a sophomore. One detail in his memoir is very clear. He said that the graduates of St. John's University have very good employment prospects. They are all diplomats and can jump into the elite.
Shen Jia: Yes, in the early years of the Republic of China, foreign capital began to enter China on a large scale. They have the advantages of capital and management mode. If you can speak English and be culturally close to him, you can get the best job, so naturally many people are willing to send their children to church schools. However, the wave of nationalism that started on 1925 started a new round of hostility, and then there was the May 30th massacre and the Guangdong-Hong Kong strike ... We look at the modern century, from the pro-British at the beginning to Sun Yat-sen's alliance with Russia, and the society began to change again. In short, it is repetition.
Phoenix. Com: There is an interesting detail in The Ship to China. William Edward Soothill sent about 30 people to study in Britain in Shanxi University Hall, and all of them graduated later, and some of them went back to school to serve. Those who returned from studying in Japan used revolution as their profession and patriotism as the banner to incite the people, which led to the collapse of mine cooperation. When the British were here, they had technology, good management, good benefits and high income. After the students got up and drove the British away, the efficiency of the mine was very low, the management was very poor and the benefits were not as good as before.
Shen Jia: Actually, after the abolition of the imperial examination, there were two groups of overseas students in China, one group went to Europe and America and the other to Japan. Many people who went to Europe and America later became technical talents. Most of our academicians of the two academies came back from studying in the United States in their early years. Great literati, such as Hu Shi, Qian Zhongshu, Bing Xin and Xu Zhimo, also studied in Europe and America. But most people who came back from Japan became revolutionaries. At that time, the cost of going to Europe and America was high, the distance was long, the threshold of European and American schools was high, the family had less money to get in, and they could not graduate if they didn't study well. Japan is close to China, with cheap tolls, many schools and miscellaneous brands. Some people go there to get diplomas, and if they don't study hard, they will go to society.
Xie Fuyun is more famous in Britain than William Edward Sothir.
Phoenix Network: From William Edward Sawhill to Xie Fuyun, William Edward Sawhill's influence is mainly in academic circles, and Xie Fuyun's influence is mainly in the public level in Britain. What is the subtle relationship and origin of this China complex between father and daughter?
Shen Jia: Their differences include personality differences and professional differences. William Edward Soothill's rigorous personality, unsmiling, serious, clear-cut and extremely diligent made him a great sinologist. At that time, being a professor of sinology in Oxford was equivalent to the crown of sinology in Europe, and his academic achievements are obvious to all today. It is because of this character that the materials he left behind are basically lifeless. Even writing a memoir of a missionary in Wenzhou looks like a religious investigation report. He is not a lively person, and he doesn't record where he goes today or tomorrow.
Xie Fuyun is his daughter. First, her gender is different. Second, she doesn't require herself to be a scholar, but she also graduated from Cambridge, with high ideological level and good writing style. At the same time, they observed China from different angles. Because of their different nature, Xie Fuyun will describe China in a literary state, while William Edward Sawhill will record China in an academic state.
But what they have in common is their love for China. As a native of China, I sometimes feel that we are moved by their love for China. Where did this love come from? The simplest understanding is that they stayed in China for too long. Xie Fuyun was born in China. As far as William Edward Sawhill is concerned, his youngest years or greatest career achievements were in China. China gave him a strong sense of existence, and he did a lot of things in China. The people of China recognized him and had deep feelings with the people of China. Xie Fuyun was born in China and came to China six times in his life. She loves China very much. If she can return to China, she has an impulse. So, of course, she hopes this place will be better.
They love China, but they are outsiders and their mode of thinking is western, so they can jump out and look at China rationally, and they also know what China's problem is. What moved me most was that at the end of William Edward Soothill's life, an international student from China went to the hospital to visit him. At that time, nationalist sentiment in China was high. William Edward Sawhill said that you need to be patient about the future of China. I think this sentence tells the biggest problem in China, and it takes patience to solve any problem in China. China is a country that changes too slowly. Lu Xun said that moving a table will bleed. I think William Edward Sawhill has read China.
I think Xie Fuyun knows China very well, because she knows how the western society has gone through the path of civilization transformation, and we have never gone through it, so we often rush in. Such a huge ancient civilization can only be transformed slowly.
Phoenix. Com: Since Xie Fuyun's "Famous Family", she and Weng's family have established a deep affection for generations. It can be said that she is a specimen, and westerners get along well with China's big family, both emotionally and culturally. This kind of harmony occurs because both families have a relatively high degree of civilization, and may also have a good rational and tolerant cultural mentality. How do you feel after living in China for many years and then moving abroad?
Shen Jia: The first recognition is that these two families are highly civilized. The Weng family in Changshu is the representative of the traditional Confucian scholar-bureaucrat family in China. China culture has good aspects, such as self-examination, self-discipline, being polite to others, what the next generation should do, being an official and not making profits for themselves, and so on. Weng's family has a good family style, otherwise it will be difficult to stand on its feet for hundreds of years, which represents the traditional Confucian civilization in China. William Edward Sawhill, a family, represents western civilization. The two civilizations are highly consistent, and the civilization itself is interlinked. I quite agree with your observation, but I would like to add that they all have a sincere side to people and have not turned civilization into a superficial etiquette or superficial courtesy.
Let me give you an example: Xie Fuyun is older than Weng's son, that is, "Li Cheng" in the book 1 1 year old. Why can Xie Fuyun play with them so well? Westerners have their sincere and childish side, which enables them to cross a certain age.
Secondly, Xie Fuyun came to see Li Cheng 1926 when he went to London with the Xu Shuzheng delegation. At that time, the Weng family (Weng family was at home) had some economic problems, and the family wanted Li Cheng to come back quickly. He has been putting Xie Fuyun and his younger brother and sister together, and told her his troubles. Xie Fuyun didn't really understand these problems of China's extended family, but she said that my husband died and left a legacy. If you need money, I will give it to you first.
Weng is Weng's grandson and Li Cheng's son. He is just 65,438+000 years old this year. He also knows that I study William Edward Sawhill. Hearing Miss Su's name, he was very kind. He knew Miss Su when he was young, but he didn't know her name was Xie Fuyun. ) I asked him to write titles for Xie Fuyun's four books, and the old man at 100 said, "It's obligatory" and "It's an honor to write titles for Miss Su".
Phoenix Net: You said that Xie Fuyun was more famous in the west than his father William Edward Sohill. Did you find that some readers, such as the British at that time, were influenced by Xie Fuyun and later played a role in Sino-British exchanges?
Shen Jia: I haven't studied Xie Fuyun so deeply, but I can prove the popularity of Xie Fuyun in Europe and America at her time. First, for example, The Noble House has many editions, including pocket edition, hardcover illustrated edition, paperback edition, English edition, American edition and even German edition, and it is constantly reprinted. This shows that it was popular at that time.
Secondly, Xie Fuyun left a letter, which was written to Li Cheng by/kloc-0 in June, 926, and it is still kept in Weng's home in Tianjin. The letter said: "Hello, Li Cheng, I received the letter of 65438+ February. In fact, you knew the publication of Noble House the first time (Li Cheng knew English, and China could subscribe to English newspapers at that time). I am very happy. You said this book is very good. There are actually many book reviews, but unfortunately, these book reviews are published in popular newspapers, not academic newspapers. Fortunately, this book sells well. This letter is about three months from the publication of Mingmen.
Another one, 1959 When Xie Fuyun died, I saw a long obituary in The Times saying that a famous writer had died. The first paragraph introduces her as the author of The Noble House, telling the British who this book was published in the 1920s, and taking these books as her symbol. Xie Fuyun's life in his later years was actually quite difficult. Her husband Xie Lishan is a knight, and the British government may have government subsidies for this noble widow, but you have to write a report. The income of the British people is open. How much do you pay this year, how much do you earn this year, and why do you apply for this subsidy? You have to have a letter of recommendation. I saw her application report in the British Archives, stating that her royalty income is very limited after 30 years, and she can't support herself with this money.
Missionary universities have made outstanding contributions to China.
Phoenix. Com: In the original concept, there has always been a saying that the church is a kind of cultural aggression or serves the interests of imperialism in China. On the surface, this kind of rhetoric seems reasonable, and some people believe it. They think that teaching him is to spread western culture and influence us. Then, judging from the subjective consciousness and practical actions of British missionaries such as William Edward Sawhill, how should we treat these remarks rationally and objectively?
Shen Jia: I think there are several relations that should be clarified. The first point is that western churches are non-governmental organizations. The same is true in Europe and America today. It is not a government organization, but a separation of church and state. Therefore, it is impossible for western governments to allocate funds to religious organizations. Therefore, western churches have nothing to do with or serve the government. It does not spread the government's ideas and ideology. The simplest question is, if I don't take your salary, why should I do something for you? Some people deliberately confuse this point and want to connect the two.
Second, when missionaries came to China, whether they were building schools or hospitals, or running charities or churches, they had a very clear purpose-preaching, which was unavoidable. His first purpose is to spread Christian faith, run schools and hospitals, which is just a circuitous strategy. Maybe this method can make it easier for China people to believe in Christianity. Then there is a question, that is, is Christianity spread by missionaries good or not? It depends on the view of this belief. He spread Christianity, and if people believe it, they will serve the American government, or imperialism, or if they believe it, they will serve you. I believe that he wants to reform his mind, and whether this mind will eventually make you its running dog or make you yourself and an independent personality, I think this is the core of the problem.
The overseas students who graduated from missionary schools and returned from Europe and America, including those who later became academicians of the two academies of China, can be said to have propped up the academic sky of China in the 20th century. Do these people serve China or the United States? The lords of the Republic of China lived so well. Have they become the lackeys of foreigners? No, why did the college graduates in the Republic of China, including the aforementioned Mr. Zhou Youguang, pursue truth and road all their lives, even shouting when they were over 100? Mr Zhou Youguang has just passed away, but there is still a son, Mr Zhong Yun, who is nearly ninety years old. They were all educated at the missionary university. Do you think they are speaking for America? They assume the conscience and responsibility of this society as old people, thinking that I should do this!
At that time, we talked about sound personality, and William Edward Soothill also talked about cultivating students' sound personality in Shanxi University Hall. The motto of St. John in Shanghai is "light and truth", which is actually the motto of Yale University. When William Edward Soothill was in Wenzhou, there was a Sino-French war, which was disastrous in China. But when the news reached China and Wenzhou, it became a victory for the people of China. William Edward Sawhill, who reads English newspapers, knows that China lost, but people are spreading the news that China won, telling each other that the foreigner is still here and should be kicked out. China was weak in modern times and needed rumors to comfort itself. At that time, not many people knew English and didn't know the truth. It took me a hundred years to understand why the information dissemination of the Sino-French War in China was quite different from the facts.
Phoenix Network: William Edward Sawhill, they preach in China, run schools, run hospitals and do various public welfare undertakings. In fact, their role in reality is quite obvious. However, there is a dilemma. Some people are always easily incited. What do you think of the study of William Edward Soothill's father and daughter and missionaries?
Shen Jia: In my opinion, the easy-to-incite fast knot is that every individual in China has not completed the construction of independent rationality, and always thinks that he is a follower of an organization and has no independent personality and spirit. In western words, China never completed his personal enlightenment, and this work has not been completed so far. Our education has always been indoctrination and slavery. In China's Confucian system, clans also bind individuals. Later education also emphasized that collective interests are greater than individuals, and individuals can be sacrificed. You don't have to think, just listen and obey. Over time, you won't think, just want someone to help you solve the problem. I think the fundamental problem in China is education.
The missionary schools run by missionaries such as William Edward Sothir broke this point, that is, let every individual wake up, everyone is great, and every life is equally important. Xie Fuyun's school in Beijing is also based on awakening women's sense of independence.