Professor of History Department of Tsinghua University College of Humanities and Social Sciences, doctoral supervisor, well-known scholar, has made great achievements in many research fields such as peasant history (land system history, peasant war history) and economic history.

Culturally, there was a very obvious change in the late Qing Dynasty, which some people called "unchanged for three thousand years". What do you mean "unchanged for three thousand years"? Does this mean that we haven't lost a battle in 3000 years, or that we haven't lost so badly? Of course not. For the first time in thousands of years, people doubted our orthodoxy.

Traditionally, these real Confucians have a cynical mentality, thinking that it runs in the family is the ideal, but later it is getting worse and worse. They took this ideal to see the west and suddenly found an ideal place, that is, the west.

Distinguish between "anti-Western Confucianism" and "anti-French Confucianism"

Thank you very much for coming to our exchange today. Recently, the traditional topics of Confucianism and Chinese studies have been very lively. But when we usually express a certain meaning in language, there is often a problem about the relationship between the so-called symbol and the meaning we want to express. Contemporary semantic analysis shows that the space of language interpretation is infinite, and the same discourse can express many different or even diametrically opposite meanings. For example, people who speak Confucianism are also Confucian speakers, and the differences between them may be very large. This is Saussure's principle of arbitrariness. If so, what is the meaning of language?

However, Saussure suggested that there is another rule in language expression, that is, the principle of difference. In layman's terms, it is what a sentence means, which is often reflected by what it is aimed at. In my language, when speaking a certain group of words, there is often an imaginary enemy, and the true meaning of our words is reflected by what we want to exclude. For example, everyone talks about Confucianism and morality. What does this benevolence and morality mean? In fact, it depends on who you are aiming at. If you leave this so-called unkind and immoral thing, your benevolence and morality will have no definite meaning.

Since you are talking about Confucianism, you must first understand what you are talking about. Since Dong Zhongshu, almost everyone has talked about Confucianism for more than two thousand years. Few people say that he is anti-Confucian, but the people who speak Confucianism are very different. As some scholars have said, the differences between western Christians are often greater than those between Christians and non-Christians. They are all about Confucianism. Why are they so different? Mainly lies in the principle of distinction. The imaginary enemies they are targeting are different.

As far as today is concerned, I think there are two most important ways to talk about Confucianism when we talk about it. One is that from Dong Zhongshu to the end of the Qing Dynasty, many Confucian scholars, I mean those who inherited the original Confucian beliefs after the pre-Qin period and before Dong Zhongshu, did not use Confucian books as a "stepping stone" just to "study as an official". They often talk cynically about Confucianism. Where can they be angry and jealous? Of course, it does not come from "Westernization", but mainly from the "Changes of Zhou and Qin Dynasties" in the period of Confucius and Mencius. Confucius was saddened by the "collapse of rites and bad music" at that time, and established the A Qin system from the "collapse of rites and bad music", which was very bad for many early Confucians.

Everyone knows that there are two concepts in primitive Confucianism, namely "kingly way" and "overbearing". Many people think that legalists advocate hegemony. They are strongly dissatisfied with this. After Dong Zhongshu, many people tamed and accepted Confucianism and Taoism, but there are still contradictions between them. On some joints, some Confucian scholars who don't know that "it's hard to be confused" will come out from time to time to criticize the Qin system, so there is a saying that "the dispute between Confucianism and Legalism lasted for two thousand years".

After the May 4th Movement, "Western learning" had a great influence. Many Confucianists, or those who claim to be Confucianists, are dissatisfied with the modernization process in the form of "westernization" rather than legalism and Qin system. From the conservatives during the Westernization Reform to many so-called conservative Confucianism people who expressed dissatisfaction with the new culture in the New Culture Movement, what they said about Confucianism certainly expressed another meaning.

But interestingly, the trend of learning from the West was initiated by the aforementioned "anti-French Confucianism". Therefore, the difference between "anti-Western Confucianism" and "anti-French Confucianism" can be said to be the most basic difference in modern times.

Learning from the west is related to moral image.

Looking back on China's ideological circles since the late Qing Dynasty, we will find that people in the past, especially after the New Culture Movement, emphasized the opposition to Western Confucianism, which concealed the fact that for a long time since the late Qing Dynasty, the person who was most eager to introduce Western learning was the so-called "anti-French Confucianism". There is a big problem here, that is, why China people suddenly want to learn from the West in the late Qing Dynasty, and there is such a strong trend. At the turn of the last century, it seems that if they don't talk about Western learning, they will not learn.

In the early years of the Republic of China, even those who were able to defend China tradition at that time often needed foreigners like Gu Hongming, and he spoke English better than Chinese, so he was qualified to play such a role. Why is this happening? Why did China people learn from the West for quite some time?

Some people say that the reason why China people wanted to learn from the West in the late Qing Dynasty was that the West defeated China people. Whoever is forced to learn from others will fall behind and be beaten. Being beaten is backward, and those who beat others are advanced, so we will learn from those who beat us.

However, it was later said that China people were disappointed with the West during the May 4th Movement because "Mr. Wang always bullied students". This statement is obviously contradictory to the above statement: according to the above statement, didn't we learn to beat us (that is, bully us) because we were beaten? If you don't hit us, we won't learn. How can there be disappointment?

Obviously, during the May 4th Movement, some China people switched from learning from the West to learning from Russia, not only because the West bullied us. But the latter statement at least shows that people's learning from the West at that time was related to the moral image of the West in the eyes of China people, not just "strong men".

But in my opinion, the most typical feature is not before the May 4th Movement, but before the Reform Movement of 1898. At that time, "anti-French Confucianism" described western morality more romantically than after the Reform Movement of 1898 and before the May 4th Movement!

Learning from the West is not "defeated" at all.

I want to say here that China people have no tradition of worshipping the "strong". We are mainly talking about China in the cultural sense, mainly referring to the farming civilization in the Central Plains and the Central Plains Dynasty, which represents this civilization and is under the banner of Confucianism. As we all know, China's defeat in this sense often happened in history, and the real defeat was not only in the late Qing Dynasty. Far away, the closest thing to the end of Qing Dynasty is the end of Ming Dynasty. Of course, some people explained that it died in hooligans rather than in the Qing Dynasty. This is what the Qing Dynasty said to flaunt its "victorious country". But even if Chongzhen died in Li Zicheng, wouldn't Li Zicheng's "Shun" dynasty be the Han regime? Was it not destroyed by the Qing Dynasty? In fact, after the death of Chongzhen, "Nanming" still once owned more than half of China. Isn't it completely defeated by Manchu?

Nanming was completely destroyed in the Qing Dynasty, which was a far cry from being "bullied" by the great powers in the late Qing Dynasty. The defeat by the West in the late Qing Dynasty was nothing more than the loss of some frontiers. The Great Qing Dynasty is still there. Although "Westernization" once went to Beijing twice, it is said that I was not convinced of "the power of China" or was afraid that "people's resistance" would soon disappear, and the whole state system was not subverted. If China worships the people who defeated them, then the people in the Ming Empire should worship Manchu talents first. Why didn't there be an upsurge of learning Manchu in China in Ming and Qing Dynasties?

On the contrary, the Han people were still very proud in culture at that time. No one thinks that we are inferior to Manchu in culture, and even thinks that Manchu culture is more advanced than us. Moreover, in the Ming and Qing Dynasties, when many people reflected, they all said that the reason why we were defeated was that Confucius and Mencius did not implement it enough, and they were still full of confidence in this set. Especially like Huang Zongxi, after the demise of the Ming Dynasty, he cursed the emperor and deeply reflected that we have many problems now. It is precisely because of these problems that we are finished, but the problem he talked about is that after the Qin Dynasty, we violated many things of Confucius and Mencius, so that we fell to this point.

However, in the late Qing Dynasty and the early Republic of China, we saw the opposite situation. Frankly speaking, compared with Nanming, the defeat in the late Qing Dynasty was not too severe. The mainstream people in China have never given up their confidence in fighting the invaders militarily, and have finally made great achievements. However, compared with China's military self-confidence, there was a very obvious change in culture in the late Qing Dynasty, which some people called "unchanged for three thousand years". What do you mean "unchanged for three thousand years"? Does this mean that we haven't lost a battle in 3000 years, or that we haven't lost so badly? Of course not. For the first time in thousands of years, people doubted our orthodoxy.

Is this just because we were defeated? If foreigners or "westerners" just took North Korea and Vietnam, we don't think Confucius and Mencius will work, then Manchu took Beijing and Nanjing. Why do we think Confucius and Mencius are ok? Why don't we learn shamanism?

Therefore, the root cause of the serious crisis of "traditional culture" after its contact with the West at that time was not "defeat". You can look at many people in China at that time, including Wang Tao, Feng Guifen, Ma Jianzhong, Zheng, Guo Songtao, Zhang Shusheng, Xue Fucheng, Kang Youwei and Tan Sitong. How do they view the west? How did they learn from the west?

Several Characteristics of "Anti-French Confucianism" Learning from the West

At that time, these people demonstrated that the west generally has the following characteristics:

First of all, they learn from the west from the perspective of pursuing moral ideals. Of course, this moral ideal has obvious "three generations" color of ancient Confucianism. Originally, traditional Confucianism has always had a feeling of dissatisfaction with reality, and people with different emotions will have different evaluations. After the May 4th Movement, anti-Confucianists thought that this kind of emotion was a retrogressive emotion of restoration and reversing history. Mr. Lu Xun specially created an "old lady of nine pounds" to describe this kind of emotion. Such people always feel that the past is better than the present. According to Confucian tradition, it runs in the family, the next generation is not the next generation. People who scold Confucianism say that this is a retrogression in restoration and a reversal of history. Those who praise Confucianism, such as Mr. Yu Yingshi, say that it is a social critical conscience of intellectuals.

However, whether it is the criticism of conscience or retrogression, the fact is the same, that is, these real Confucianism-what I call "real Confucianism" is not to get a stepping stone to be a big official in the imperial examination, but they have a real pursuit. Traditionally, these people have a cynical attitude, thinking that it runs in the family is the ideal, but it has become worse and worse. They took this ideal to see the west and suddenly found an ideal place, that is, the west. This so-called pursuit of moral ideals, that is, the ideals of three generations of ancient Confucianism, is the main motive for these people to learn from the West, while the utilitarianism of Qiang Bing, a rich country, is only a secondary or incidental motive.

Second, these people everywhere from the "Confucian anti-law" values. Facing the West, their first impression is how bad our "Qin Zheng Xunxue" is. They often say that a society like the West embodies the civilization achieved by three generations in China. They learn from the west at this time, often with a color of "introducing the west to save Confucianism". It is said that China was originally very civilized, but it became worse and worse in the Warring States period. After Qin Shihuang became a bandit politics, China fell. I thought Confucianism was hopeless. Now there is another place where Confucianism has been realized, that is, the imaginary West. If implemented, it can correct this set of things after Qin dynasty, revive Confucian ideals, and correct the disadvantages of the collapse of rites and music since Qin and Han dynasties. In short, they believe that learning from the west is to resist the legalists.

Third, corresponding to the above two points, at that time, these people often emphasized learning from the West, and they should learn how to "introduce the West to save Confucianism" and resist this set of things in the Legalist system, which is the so-called "style" and "foundation" of western learning, and learning this style and foundation is the main thing, followed by learning "use" and learning "end". Learning from the west is first of all to learn from the democratic Republic, and the world is public. This is the most important and the foundation. As for the others, it is not only the ability of the market economy to make money, but also the purpose, purpose and secondary thing-obviously related to the Confucian tradition of attaching importance to agriculture and restraining business. These people often emphasize learning to "exercise" and "learn"

Fourth, if these people seek ideological resources that are in line with learning from the West in their local traditions, they often emphasize returning to ancient Confucianism and rejecting Buddhism. Because these people often have a very clear tendency to oppose Legalism and Buddhism and Taoism, in the Confucian orthodoxy, these people often value Mencius very much and exclude Xunzi. As we all know, during the Warring States period, Confucianism was divided into eight parts. It is generally believed that Xunzi represents the transition from Confucianism to Legalism, or that Xunzi is half-Confucianism and half-law. At this time, these scholars hated Xunzi's point of view, and the so-called Mencius did the opposite. These people think Mencius is very good, because there are a lot of remarks about Mencius that later legalists don't like. Zhu Yuanzhang banned Mencius for this reason, and these people are also looking for so-called ideological resources in this direction.

Fifth, at that time, these Confucian scholars who were keen on "learning from the West" hardly noticed. Nowadays, many people think that the most essential feature of western culture is freedom of personality, and individualism is now regarded as the core value of modern western liberalism. Some scholars have come to the conclusion that China people accepted the so-called individual, individuality and individualism relatively late, and they all entered China around the May 4th Movement, but the concepts of democracy and republicanism entered China long ago, and they accepted these things very early. They mainly talk about the western democratic republic and the world serving the public, and reflect on the "home world" since the Qin Dynasty.

Today, of course, this is a lack of understanding of western learning. Now, of course, we all know that individual rights play a very important role in this western system, whether it is democratic politics or market economy. But there is a phenomenon that I find very interesting, that is, although we can say that this is a manifestation of our ignorance of western learning. What is intriguing, however, is that it is precisely this superficial view of westerners in this period that, first of all, because it does not emphasize individual standard, it has not formed obvious conflict with the Confucian value system based on small community. During this period, many people didn't think that Western Confucianism was antagonistic, because primitive Confucianism really didn't stress individual standard. Primitive Confucianism talks about the ethical principles of family standard, small community standard and acquaintance society. If we study these things carefully, it really contradicts the modern western value system.

People at that time didn't seem to realize this, so they didn't feel how many contradictions existed between them. However, it is precisely this "superficial" understanding that, on the one hand, dilutes the contradiction of western Confucianism, on the other hand, it makes a fierce conflict between "Qin system" and the tradition of legalist autocracy. It is precisely because of this that those so-called "superficial views" that attach importance to democracy and despise freedom did not hinder the development of individual rights and even the enhancement of freedom consciousness of China citizens at that time, but also played a great enlightening role. Although the western learning that people know at this time does not emphasize individualism, in fact, this period is precisely the period when China's personality consciousness began to sprout, and this sprout was not suppressed by the trend of "saving Confucianism with western learning". Why is this?

All three generations have gone to the west.

Many scholars were discussing this at that time. For example, Guo Songtao clearly said, "Three generations ago, the Enlightenment in China gradually died out ... since the Han Dynasty. As well as political and religious customs, European countries are unique winners. It regards China as the same as three generations in its heyday. " China's culture is great, but it refers to three generations. Only China is the most civilized place in the world, but not after the Qin and Han Dynasties. Since the Han Dynasty, China seems to have gradually become a barbarian, but the "three generations" all went to the West.

Tan Sitong put it better: after the Qin Dynasty, "in 2000, it was a descendant of three generations of culture, and today it is barbarian." In a word, it seems that the way of Confucius and Mencius has long been destroyed in China. As Xu Jishe said, only the West "inherits the meaning of three generations".

Xue Fucheng also said: "Before Tang Yu, everyone was democratic ... everyone had virtue, and all the people could wear it as a monarch and then a vassal." . The vassal Youde, the vassal Xianzun is the son of heaven. This is the scale of democracy today. Qin Shihuang ruled the world by force, because he had great power and interests. After Qin and Han dynasties, they were all monarchs. If the husband lived in the Xia, Shang and Zhou dynasties ... Mencius said that "the people are the most important, the country is the second, and the monarch is the light" is still in the meantime. Is it true that Britain and Italy are in power together? ..... So three On Behalf Oflong, thousands of years, three thousand years, unprecedented. "In his view, what the West has done is actually what our first three generations did:" Those who have virtue are encouraged by the world. "At that time, it was not a family. All virtuous people were elected by the people.

We can see that many people are full of praise for the legalist reform in Qin and Han Dynasties after the May 4th Movement, and think that Shang Yang's reform is great. The advanced people before the Reform Movement of 1898, on the contrary, were most disgusted with what Shang Yang initiated. Confucianism in the Hundred Days Movement believed that the collapse of rites and music was not caused by western learning, but after the "three generations" and the "violent Qin Dynasty". In Tan Sitong's words: "Two thousand years of politics, Qin Zheng, are thieves. Learning for nearly two thousand years, learning in Xun is also a hometown wish. " China was ruled by thieves and homesickness for two thousand years!

What is "hometown wish"? After reading Mencius, I know that it was a kind of person that Confucianism hated most at that time, that is, swinging grass, falling with the wind, drifting with the flow, and whoever was in power followed. The antonym of "homesickness" is the "squire" respected by ancient Confucianism. In modern times, we interpret the squire as the landlord, but at first this "squire" refers to a kind of clothing unique to literati, and by extension it refers to Confucian scholars. It is said that their duty is to uphold justice, be independent of power, and "follow the Tao and not follow the monarch."

In the view of these "anti-French Confucianism" in the late Qing Dynasty, such "squire" has disappeared here, only the "homesickness" after Qin Dynasty. So where is the squire? In the west. Western parliament, especially the fully elected lower house of parliament, was first translated as "squire room" in the late Qing Dynasty. It is said that a group of congressmen do not listen to the emperor, but only recognize justice ("discussing gentry"), and are busy all day "pleading for heaven and people".

On "the Beauty of Western National Politics and Folklore"

Frankly speaking, the complaints about the "Qin system" are not unique to the late Qing Dynasty. In fact, there are always some people who complain about the Confucian system in China. True Confucians are often dissatisfied with reality. Confucius once said, "If the Tao fails, you can float on the sea by fork." Now, the ceremony collapses and the society degenerates. Now I want to go overseas by boat as an immigrant. Zhu also said: "Yao and Shun can never walk between heaven and earth."

But unlike Confucius and Mencius and Zhu, the Confucians in the late Qing Dynasty found a source of "benevolence, righteousness and morality", that is, the West. In Xu Jishe's words, it is "the method of recommendation, which is the world's public, is almost the legacy of three generations."

Of course, they say that the West is more merciful than "I am the Qing Dynasty", mainly at home, that is, the rulers of the West are much more merciful to their own people than the rulers of the old society in China are to the people of China, and the relationship between countries is not involved here. These people mentioned above are of course patriots on the issue of state-to-state relations, and their attitude towards resisting foreign powers' aggression is clear. But if we talk about the domestic system, they obviously think that western democracy is much more "benevolent and moral" than China's legalist politics.

Therefore, when these people introduce the West, their main focus is not on "building a strong ship", or even on running companies and doing business that Westerners are now recognized as good at, but on the so-called "beauty of western officials and folk customs". Wang Tao preached "propriety and righteousness as teaching", "benevolence and righteousness as foundation" and "moral education as foundation" in the West.

What Guo Songtao said is more systematic. He said that the foundation of western countries is "the unity of government and politics", and westerners' ability to do business is only secondary. He said that the legal system in western society is very strict, so "justice is increasing day by day." It is said that there is no homesickness, only the "squire's room" (parliament). A group of scholars who are worried about the world first are entrusted by the people to discuss political affairs here, saying that this country is not the private property of the monarch, and this country is for the people. He said that democratic elections "must use talents" and the emperor could not appoint private people. As long as the people are not satisfied, the rulers have to change. He said it was good, too. He said that the ruling party and the opposition party "reason and debate to determine right and wrong" and "everyone strives for victory according to what he sees, but it is conducive to peace." When it comes to freedom of speech there, people's voices are taken seriously.

In short, he believes that this country is a state of etiquette, and it is no accident that it can become rich and strong. He even said that Britain won the "returnee heart" because of "kindness and kindness", which was a little envious. Britain has so many colonies because it is "kind and caring"? We know, in fact, Guo Songtao also said that it is because of their "strong ship and strong guns."

Guo Songtao, the first foreign envoy, analyzed this. He is similar to Zeng Guofan. He was born in Hanlin and was a Confucian scholar. When he went abroad, he was 58 years old and his values had been finalized. He doesn't understand foreign languages either. Although he studied hard during his stay abroad, systematic learning is impossible and there can be no "cultural transformation". Guo Songtao was always a Confucian. Although he is fond of Britain, he has never criticized Confucianism. He just criticized China for deviating from the Confucian ideal of "it runs in the family" after Qin and Han Dynasties. He regarded Britain as the "state of etiquette" that Confucianism yearned for.