Update 1:

Weiwei: Thank you for your answer, but if you want to discuss the matter, I feel that you have not understood my question at all. Instead, you have baseless belief that I am not familiar with the Analects of Confucius. Wen didn't understand it, which was puzzling. My question is based on layers of evidence, please take a closer look: First of all, you did not state whether you agree with my understanding of Confucius’s interpretation of shame. Does Confucius believe that shame comes from acquired education? I think so, and that's the basis for all the questions that follow. Then, if "Confucius believes that shame comes from acquired education" is true, how can Confucius blame others? Because it is not their responsibility, it is just because they did not have the opportunity to receive relevant education, so why should we blame them?

Update 2:

Finally, since Confucius cannot blame people, then he said that those who use clever words to persuade women are shameful. What is the legitimacy? Confucius thought it was shameful for those who spoke eloquently and flirted with sex, but those who spoke eloquently and flirted with sex did not feel ashamed. This is ***, but *** comes from education. So what's the point of despising them? In addition, it is inappropriate for you to infer that shame means having the courage to change from the fact that "knowing shame is close to courage". Knowing shame is only "almost" courageous, but it is not "equal" to courage. Therefore, people who are aware of shame may not necessarily have the motivation to change. It also proves that simply feeling shame does not necessarily constitute sufficient motivation for people to change. However, this is not the core of the issue.

Update 3:

Weiwei: Thanks for the addition. However, a major question remains: What textual evidence shows that Confucius indeed believed that shame is "lurking in everyone's heart"? If there is no support from the original text, isn't what you said just wishful thinking and your own theory, not necessarily Confucius' original intention? If, as you said, Confucius did not think shameful people were worthy of blame, then to him, what exactly did the "shame" in "Qiu Yishazhi" mean? You haven't made this clear yet.

Update 4:

leeming05: I don't understand the point of your answer. I have no objection to that sentence as a comparison of governance styles to point out the shortcomings of Legalism or any governance model that advocates harsh punishments. The problem is, that sentence reflects that shame comes from education. And if shame comes from upbringing, what reason is there to blame others? This issue is an important one, but you don’t seem to have touched on it directly. You talk about both shame itself and the behavior that should be shamed. Do you mean to ask me to separate the two, to say that we have no reason to blame people for their actions, but we do have reasons to blame them for, for example, their rhetorical behavior? But if the glib talkers feel ashamed, will they still do it? If they are acting this way because they don’t feel ashamed, and shame comes from education, then why should we blame them?

Update 5:

pioklj: Didn’t I show the original text? "The Analects of Confucius. "Wei Zheng": "The Master said: The way is based on government, the order is based on punishment, and the people are free from corruption. The way is based on virtue, the order is based on etiquette, and the people have shame and dignity." From this, we can see that he should think that shame is Only through enlightenment can it be reasonable. Or, you can explain another way of interpreting it to convince everyone that this sentence does not necessarily include the possibility that shame is taught. It is always your own choice and decision to be good or evil. If you insist on doing evil, you should certainly be despised by others. But if shame is not inherent in people, but comes from education, then the lack of shame only means that (unfortunately) we have not received relevant education, and it seems that we cannot easily despise them as we hate evil people.

Update 6:

leeming05: Even though Confucius’ purpose was not to explain shame, he made the argument in this way after all, and the purpose of his speech did not give rise to any reason to deny his argument. You also say that Confucius did not explain shame. Then you say that Confucius believed that human nature is inherently shameful. What is the evidence? Blaming is also education, which is a valid argument. But from the Analects of Confucius and Mencius, sages often only say that this person is ashamed of that person, but they do not have the intention to educate, or have proposed feasible education methods. It seems that taking accusations as education is just your guess, right?

Update 7:

Confused: Then you should think that what Confucius thought should be "shameful" was only affected by the culture at that time.

However, there is a trend in comparative philosophy, which is to see that the arguments and views on various moral emotions within Confucianism are quite complete, and can complement the discussion of related moral emotions in Western philosophy. Some mainstream views in contemporary Western philosophy are not as complete as those of Confucianism when analyzed in detail. This is a question worth exploring in depth.

Update 8:

Confused: I think you have not clearly distinguished the nature of shame and what behaviors should produce shame. The essence of shame can be a negative evaluation of oneself and a resulting hatred due to one's failure to practice a certain moral behavior. This essence can be human nature or the product of education. The so-called shame of Confucius that you mentioned represents his point of view. Yes, he does believe that people should be ashamed under certain behaviors, and this represents the mainstream values ??at that time. Just as we may have another set of standards today to measure the circumstances under which people should feel ashamed.

Update 9:

But this difference is a different view of "under what circumstances should we have a negative evaluation of ourselves", but it cannot be used to judge the nature of "shame" Change. However, this question is exactly an analysis of the nature of shame, including the human nature of shame and its legitimacy, which are universally objective. That is to say, if you think that the conclusion is that shame comes from education, then this conclusion is universal. If you think that the conclusion is that shame is not justified at all and people do not need to have "shame", then the nature of this conclusion is also universal. Of course, you must support your conclusion with objective and universal reasons.

Update 10:

leeming05: It makes sense. I accept your explanation that it is an educational method. However, the "shame" of being "ashamed" of others, in addition to purposefully pointing out that he is shameful, should also contain essential contempt. If we discuss this shame solely for educational purposes, it does not seem to fully explain its despicability. It seems appropriate to say that those people were not meant to behave like this, so the behavior was inherently despicable and therefore worthy of being ashamed of, and worthy of trying to correct them by blaming them for it. If this is the case, it also presupposes that some behaviors should essentially be "shameful". If they should be "shameful" in essence, then they shouldn't do this regardless of whether they have been taught it or not, right? This seems to be back to the original problem.

Update 11:

I admit that some things are human nature, but I think Mencius may not be unable to explain why those things are human nature; I have read that there is actually a rigorous argument in "Gao Zixia" To support the theory of human nature, but it requires in-depth study before elaborating further. I don't insist on this. Shame may be a part of human nature, but Confucius's words make people think that he believes that shame comes from education. No matter how you explain it, there should be a reasonable explanation.

Update 12:

Weiwei: Thank you for the addition, but you only provided information on understanding the literal meaning of the original text, and did not respond to my questions one by one. There is no problem with my understanding of the original text, and agreeing with this understanding has nothing to do with this issue.

"Guide them with government, and regulate them with punishment, and the people will be exempted from corruption; guide them with virtue, and coordinate them with etiquette, and they will be shameful and dignified." ("The Analects of Confucius? For Politics") before One paragraph talks about the Legalist attitude towards the common people, and the next few sentences talk about the Confucian attitude towards the common people. Meng Ke attributed these two prosperous lives to two kinds of politics, one called "king" and the other called "hegemony". Feng Youlan: "The Second Volume of the New History of Chinese Philosophy", People's Publishing House, January 1988, page 63. In addition, dfg/big5/chh/ssjz/30-lunyu-weizheng can also be found online. "Tao Zhizhi" means using politics to lead the people. Formulate administrative regulations for politicians and make the people abide by them. If any of the people do not comply, they will be punished. "Qi" is pronounced as "whole". That is to use punishment to rectify it. The effect obtained in this way is "the people are exempted from corruption." Kong annotated "free" as "gou free", and the word "free" was written as "tuo" in "Guangya Exegesis". In order to avoid punishment, the people obeyed the government orders, but they were not convinced. If the punishment is slightly relaxed, the people will break the law and not be ashamed of it, which is ***. "Guanzi Herdsmen" takes etiquette, justice, integrity and shame as the four dimensions of governing the country. The national ***, the day of the country’s subjugation, can be known without asking. "The way is based on virtue, and the unity is based on etiquette." Note: "Virtue refers to morality." Guide the people with morality. If there are people who do not obey the government's orders, they should be rectified with etiquette.

In this way, the result is that the people have "shame and dignity." "Explanation" quotes Zheng's note: "Ge means coming." Coming means the return of people's hearts. The people are ashamed of crime and sincerely support the Communist Party. He Yan notes: "Ge means righteousness." People have a sense of shame and return to righteousness. This can also be said. Respectfully recorded from "The Analects of Confucius" Xue Gong's narration, Professor Xu Xingmin respectfully remembers it. In summary, this sentence "guide it to politics,..." is a political science issue, a problem of two ways of governance, Just like the title of the chapter, this is not a question of "shame". However, just as you said that shame comes from education, then this sentence "... Qiu is also ashamed of it." There is no conflict. This sentence also means teaching. It seems that you have not noticed that "shame" itself and the behavior of shame should be felt. Shameful behavior needs to be understood and will change with the times. 2009-11-28 08:13:27 Supplement: The two passages I quoted indicate that this is a political issue. The purpose is to say that Confucius did not explain what "shame" is. Your use of this sentence as an argument is not solid. You seem to want to say that if there is no "shame" in human nature, it is taught, so you cannot blame people for "***". From the words of Confucius, I think Confucius believed that human nature has a heart of shame. Otherwise, how can we follow the Tao with virtue and harmonize it with propriety? Blaming someone with "***" is just a scolding word. It does not mean that the person really does not have "shame" in his nature. It is just a very strong word, which is equivalent to denying that the person being blamed is a human being. In fact, your question is: If you have not been taught, you cannot say that others are wrong. This is just an education issue and cannot be used as a reason. In fact, blaming is one of the ways of teaching. 2009-11-29 14:20:11 Supplement: Since you think that Confucius is talking about political issues in this passage, but you insist that Confucius believes that "shame" comes from education, you should provide more proof. I have tried to explain that only when people have a sense of shame can they be virtuous and polite. Otherwise, how can it be said to be effective? With this foundation, Confucius opposed the casting of a punishment cauldron. It is precisely because Confucius believed that people have the attribute of shame that he believed that education is feasible and reasoning is effective, which can touch the four ends of people (the four ends mentioned by Mencius) and can make people identify with it from the bottom of their hearts. Punishment cannot achieve this effect. Confucius did say what human nature is, but Mencius made up for this deficiency. 2009-11-29 14:20:30 Supplement: To accuse this shame or that shame is to use some examples to teach, and the reasons are clearly explained. You said earlier that Confucius believed that shame comes from education. Why do you say now that "but you don't see that they have the intention to educate"? There are positive methods and negative methods for teaching a behavior. To put it in your sentence of "Smart words make people look good", you are using the negative method, and the positive method is to "establish your sincerity" in being a person. What Confucius said about what should be shameful or not shameful was all taught in his teachings, using practical examples in life. These are clearly visible and cannot be guessed at. Blame is just a manifestation of the degree of denial of wrong behavior. Let's take the example of eloquent words and beauty. Kong Kong also said that eloquent words and beauty make benevolence more vivid. This is another way to say it. So I think it’s all one of the teaching methods. 2009-11-29 21:39:17 Supplement: It seems that you insist that shame must be connected with a certain behavior, and cannot just be shame. I say it is part of human nature, which means that people must have these natures. This is a person. According to Mencius, it has four characteristics. Otherwise, it is not a human being, but another animal. But if you ask why people have these four ends, you cannot answer, because the properties of a specific thing are the properties of that specific thing. For example, apples have a property that only apples have, which is their nature. Otherwise, they would not be apples. If you want to ask why apples have these characteristics, you cannot answer it, at least not by philosophy. "In addition to purposefully pointing out that he is shameful, it should also contain essential contempt." This sentence seems to go too far, that is to say, there is an eternal truth, which is difficult to prove. 2009-11-29 21:39:31 Supplement: I think people are rational animals. If they understand what is wrong, they will not do it and feel ashamed. If you want to do something bad, you must first deceive yourself before you can deceive others. Confucius also said that making mistakes without correcting them is a mistake. 2009-11-30 22:02:38 Supplement: Mencius is a very early thinker, and the entire history of Chinese philosophy has talked about the issue of human nature.

I have tried hard to explain what you said about Confucius. At most, it can only be used to teach those behaviors that are shameful or not. But you disagree, but your objection is not clear enough and is just the literal meaning of the sentence. Let me end with a sentence: "The reason why people are human is that the common people will leave, but the gentlemen will survive." ("Mencius? Li Lou Xia").

The "shame" in "Qiu Yishazhi" has a translation in the information that answered your friend saying that it is to be ashamed of so-and-so. This should be interpreted as "shameful", which can be said to be " Shameless". Furthermore, Avatar T, as per your big question, is there any text that can refer to Confucius’ original meaning? Confucius believed that shame came from education, so could he blame people for "***"? Returning to the question itself, is this "thinking" Confucius' original intention? And do you have any textual evidence to show that Confucius indeed believed that shame "comes from education"? If we use the method of analogy and quote the Analects sentence "Only a benevolent person can do good to others and do evil to others", it seems that he can also "shame others". However, this is purely my personal opinion. I think they also have a benevolent heart, so they can also be blamed. *** person. The Analects of Confucius was not written by Confucius, so without pursuing its authenticity, we will simply discuss it in an article. This passage can also be used to explain to students what "shame" is by citing other people's words and deeds.

"The Analects of Confucius." "For the Government": The original text of Confucius said: "Guide them with politics, regulate them with punishments, and the people will be exempted from corruption; guide them with virtue, coordinate them with etiquette, and be shameful and dignified." Translated Confucius said: "Come with political orders. Management is restricted by criminal law. Although people dare not commit crimes, they are not ashamed of crime; guided by morality and restricted by etiquette, people not only abide by the law, but also learn from shame. **If punishment is used as a way to govern the world. Yes, people are afraid of being punished. Although they will not break the law, they do not know the consequences of shame. Guide with clear reason, "shame" means, and use etiquette to make clear the "shame" effect. It can make people treat each other with courtesy and make them understand that shame is common in everyone. It is just a matter of learning from education and making it easy to understand what shame is? As the saying goes, "Knowing shame is close to courage." It means having the courage to change! In this way, people will naturally be free from the desire to commit crimes, and they will be exempted from punishment if they do not commit evil acts. Therefore, be based on shame. Punishment is the end. If you know your roots, you will not be trapped by your mistakes. The reason why morality is rampant today is mostly because people in the world do not know the virtue of "shame". Note on the Eight Virtues: "Those who forget the eight virtues of filial piety, brotherhood, loyalty, trustworthiness, propriety, righteousness, and integrity have forgotten the heart of shame." And now he has fallen! If not, how should we understand the situation of being ashamed of others in the following sentence? I think the poster didn't really understand the reason. If he understood the meaning, he wouldn't have any doubts. "The Analects of Confucius. "Gong Ye Chang": The original text of the Confucius said: "If Zuo Qiu is ashamed of his clever words, charming appearance, and full respect, Qiu will be ashamed of him; if he hides his grudges and is friendly to others, Zuo Qiu will be ashamed of him, and Qiu will be ashamed of him." Translation Confucius said: "Sweet words, smiling faces, nodding and bowing are considered shameful by Zuo Qiu Ming, and I think it is shameful by Zuo Qiu Ming; Zuo Qiu Ming thinks it is shameful by making friends with people with resentment, and I think it is shameful by Zuo Qiu Ming. **Making friends with sincerity is not a matter of fighting. Just bow to me. Master Kong agrees with Zuo Qiuming’s approach to making friends! ^^ Thank you. 2009-11-26 12:45:22 Added: Sometimes I don’t agree with what you said! Some people will ask questions clearly. According to my understanding, let me first say: Confucius does not think that shame comes from education. Shame is inherent in human beings and is hidden in some people's hearts when they are young. Parents’ teachings about shame and shame include: You must not be naked in front of the opposite sex. If you make a wrong step, your life goals will be difficult to achieve! Seedling Fund" is an example of helping children avoid harm. When it comes to educating them, they will respond accordingly. So on the surface, "shame" seems to come through education, but in fact, "shame" is hidden in everyone's heart, and it is brought out through education! 2009-11-26 13:11:20 Supplement: Furthermore: Confucius did not agree that "shame" is acquired through education, it is just wishful thinking of the world. Badri's: "Shameful Virtue". It comes from nature. The virtuous are virtuous! A fact that everyone knows. What is shameful virtue? If you understand the importance of "shame", you will naturally avoid going astray or going astray. You will not dare to make mistakes. If you make a mistake, you will also know how to self-reflect. If you know your mistake, you can correct it. "Shame" can play the role of virtue. If you correct your own mistakes, you can correct your mistakes. There is no greater good! Otherwise, if you only know how to shirk responsibility, you will forget your shame.

Since human beings are born, they are just a blank piece of paper. Through learning from childhood and continuous learning as they grow, they gradually form their own life paths! However, there are so many subjects to study! Everything is the law of birth and death: "Dependent origination and dependent cessation." Philosophy and sacred science include: Buddhism, Confucianism, Taoism, Ye Xue, and Hui Xue, the five major schools of teaching. But what most people learn is knowledge, how can they be compared? Of course, these are all irrelevant topics. Thanks! 2009-11-26 13:45:09 Supplement: It is necessary to understand that the book "The Analects" is written down by Confucius' disciples one by one what the teacher taught and did every day: Confucius would not directly say right or wrong, but mostly from words , the questions and answers enable the disciples to reflect on the correct answers. How can we say that Confucius is a weirdo? You need to understand the intention behind your words: Is the person who talks cleverly and flirts with sex a liar? It depends on the purpose of his words. Is his praise sincere or to please others? Or flattering? In this way

As soon as it comes, it becomes insincere. People who only know good words may seem to be surrounded by friends, but in fact, many people are afraid of people who don't mean what they say. Who has no shortcomings! Confucius did not blame others, he just taught his disciples. Whether you are taught or not, let everything come naturally! "Knowing shame is close to courage" means that for sentient beings who know shame, those who are shameless will have absolutely no effect. The saint's lifelong teachings are all about making people understand that we are inherently virtuous, but we have no choice but to rest on our laurels and make empty promises. Thanks! 2009-11-26 13:45:32 Supplement: Christianity says: "Everyone in the world is a sinner." Is it God's fault again? ^^ 2009-11-30 16:17:23 Supplement: Confucius said: Tao governs, If the people are harmonized by punishment, the people will be spared and harmed; if they are governed by virtue, they should be harmonized with etiquette, and there will be shame and dignity. Guided by the same Tao. Huangshu: "To guide, it means to lure." Liu's Zhengyiyi Chapter of the Book of Rites and the Taoist Teaching Words. Kong Anguo said: "Politics refers to the legal system." Huang Shu: "Politics refers to the legal system." The way to govern is to use politics to lead the people. Formulate administrative regulations for politicians and make the people abide by them. If any of the people do not comply, they will be punished. Let’s speak the whole word together. That is to use punishment to rectify it. The effect of this is that the people are immune and free from corruption. Kong's annotations are exempted from Gou's remarks, and Guangya's exegesis is exempted from making out-of-character explanations. In order to avoid punishment, the people obeyed the government orders, but they were not convinced. If the punishment is slightly relaxed, the people will break the law without feeling any shame, which is a crime. Guanzi's Herdsman Chapter takes etiquette, justice, integrity and shame as the four dimensions of governing the country. The national ***, the day of the country’s subjugation, can be known without asking. The way is based on virtue, and the harmony is based on etiquette. Note: "Virtue refers to morality."... 2009-11-30 16:17:46 Supplement: .... Guide the people with morality. If there are people who do not obey the government orders, they should be rectified with etiquette. . In this way, the result is that the people have shame and dignity. The explanatory text quotes Zheng's note: "Ge means coming." Coming means the return of people's hearts. The people are ashamed of crime and sincerely support the Communist Party. He Yan notes: "Ge means righteousness." People have a sense of shame and return to righteousness. This can also be said. 2009-11-30 16:23:25 Supplement: Confucius said: Zuo Qiu is ashamed of his skillful words, his charming appearance, and his courtesy. Qiu is also ashamed of him. He hides his grudges and makes friends with others. Zuo Qiu is ashamed of them, and Qiu is also ashamed of them. Shame on it. Feet are the limbs of the limbs. Clever words come from the mouth, color appears in the face, and respect is expressed in the feet. The meaning of being respectful means not moving forward. For example, when Han Tui sent Li Yuan back to Pangu, the preface said: "If you are ready, you will stumble forward." These three are all false feelings. It is okay to deceive ordinary people, but not to deceive knowledgeable people. Zuo Qiuming, Taishi of Lu, knew the principles of the Spring and Autumn Period. He saw that this man's whole body was fake, so he was ashamed of him. Hiding grudges and being friends with others, Kong Anguo notes: "Hide grudges and be friends with others, resenting each other in the heart, but cheating on relatives outside." If you have a grudge with someone, you can resolve it if it is small, or retaliate if it is big. If you hide grudges, But if you are friends with others, their intentions are sinister and deceitful, so Zuo Qiu Ming is ashamed of him. Confucius was also ashamed of these two kinds of people. .......If Dr. Li's answer is not recognized by you...that's the case. No one can help you. THX~! 2009-12-02 14:39:35 Supplement: Confucius did not have any weirdo ***.

It's just that the poster cannot accept the moral principle of "shame"! ^^

Reference: The Analects of Confucius annotations web2.tcssh.edu/school/guowenke/books/new_page_442# Gongye Long Chapter 5

Experience

The Way of Learning

The Way of Learning

The Way of Learning

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